Why does Classical Chinese Medicine seem so complicated? A continuing conversation…

classical_chinese_medicine_is_complicatedHere is the second part of the article by my colleague Michael Givens. You can read the first part here. I hope we will see more of him here on Deepest Health. Please be sure to leave your thoughts in the comments, as he is a regular reader of the blog and will most certainly be interested in hearing what you have to say.

———

In the broad view it is simply the nature of Yin and Yang, yet it is also because Chinese medicine has had such a long fermentation process; the classical texts as we’ve understood them, present the view that I’ve described above, one of functional dynamics, but as Chinese society grew and changed, and as the West’s materialism influenced them, the lens of the Chinese doctors went through a few very important changes.

This is why it is so complicated. It is not “one medicine.” Like most things in China’s history, there has been a perpetual push to maintain an umbrella called “Chinese” for all things “Chinese” but this actually barely holds together. It is the same with the Chinese language: though there is a claim that the Chinese have had the same language for thousands of years, it is not completely true. What is true is that there is a continuous thread linking the oracle bones to modern Chinese, but that does not at all mean that it is the same language. The language meaning and usage within the context of culture and understanding could not possibly be the same.

With Chinese medicine, we could really isolate the different eras and dynasties and call these “Chinese medicine periods,” and there are some very real differences among them. Yet, the reason for our program is that there is a common root. There are the Shennong Ben Cao Jing, the Neijing, the Shang Han Lun, the Zang Zhong Jing, the Nan Jing, the Jia Yi Jing and the Maijing, for starters. Within these classical texts, while there are some significant differences and disagreements (even within the Neijing there are important discrepancies) it does seem that there is a common perception and worldview amongst them, a common understanding of the functional dynamism of human physiology and its correspondence to the movement of nature. However, after these texts and times, Chinese medicine becomes confusing and complicated.

This does not mean that anything written or practiced after Wangshu He in the second century CE is wrong by any means; it means that all of the formulas and treatments after this have to be carefully examined to gain any sort of understanding of the perceptions of those who created them. All Chinese scholars of all periods had a very deep and profound understanding of the classics, so in some ways we could say that what TCM (the Chinese medicine practiced and taught everywhere that has the approval of contemporary Chinese medical scholars of today) has to offer is the best of two thousand years of practice and scholarship.

But, I believe we are in a better position today than that. We are in the position to broadly see how human consciousness has traversed from immaterialism to materialism, from conceptualization of process and movement, to a conceptualization of matter and physical (Western) physiology, and today, we can see how we are now reaching about as far as a materialist view can go. This allows us to move forward to a new, yet much less material understanding. Western science is also running up to this point and it appears that a subtle, yet great paradigm shift is underway. I believe classical Chinese medicine can be at the forefront of this shift.

Thus, I am advocating for the importance of not acquiring too many useful tools of TCM, but rather to push Chinese medicine further by doing what the scholars of all times have had to do. It should be each one of our responsibilities to read, study, examine, practice and experiment with what the classical texts have to offer, before we try to see what others have done with them.

We should do this so that we can at the very least, understand why for instance, one scholar in Chinese history decided to modify Li Zhong Wan (a formula from the Shang Han Lun, Han Dynasty, 1st century, designed to “rectify” the spleen and “center” using the herbs: dried ginger, ginseng, atractylodes, and honey-fried licorice) and turn it into Bai Zhu Tang or the later more well known name, Si Jun Zi Tang (Four Gentlemen’s Decoction: Song Dynasty, 11th century, designed to strengthen the Spleen, using the herbs: ginseng, atractylodes, poria and honey-fried licorice), which is so widely used today.

Was it because he was more evolved in his understanding? Did he have a better grasp of the human body and human diseases, or did he simply have a different understanding of it; was he, perhaps more materialistic and narrow in his understanding? The only way for us to know, despite the fact that our teachers will advocate for one or the other, is to have a specific frame of reference. Otherwise, we just have to choose one or the other and see what happens. But, I believe that we will at some point, have to define for ourselves our own understanding of what medicine does and how the body works.

Of course, this is what we have been learning while at school, but it has not been consistent. The holistic view of classical Chinese medicine is not the holistic view of TCM, though TCM claims it is. The holistic view of one teacher, for that matter is not always the holistic view of another. Yet, based on what we have learned from the classical texts, classical holism is a dynamic interplay between function and matter, internal and external, time and space.

It is based on the concept that matter follows energy, and energy follows consciousness; this is what we have been taught, yet is easy to neglect. It is also essential to recall that, like (classical) Naturopathic medicine, classical Chinese medicine works primarily through helping the body (functionally, not materially) to regain balance rather than doing something to the body (supplementing materially) to re-establish balance.

The holistic view of TCM is simply that internal and external are mutually related, and that the laws of yin and yang and the five elements apply to both humans and to nature, that’s it. There certainly is the concept of functionality in TCM, but it is clear that material concepts are much more predominant, and this is seen in the way disease is treated.

For us to be able to effectively evaluate the various treatments and protocols from the thousand years of fermentation, we must be able to know when they are doing something to the body and when they are communicating a functional shift within the dynamic of the whole person. We can only know this by knowing the classical understanding of physiology. We really can only know classical physiology by understanding deeply the classical theoretical principles of nature and the cosmos.

I believe that we can only foster a growth and evolution of the future of Chinese medicine through deeply assimilating our perceptions and understandings to the perceptions and understandings of the ancient scholars. We must understand our medicine from a physiological, dynamic, functional perspective that takes in to consideration space (physical and relational), time (seasonal breath and astrological changes) and direction (momentum, flow, and interrelation) to begin to understand what was intended in the Chinese medical classics.

With this kind of an understanding, we can then easily evaluate classical and traditional Chinese formulas and treatments; more importantly, we will be able to develop new, yet classical methods of treating diseases, for we will be protecting the functions and warmth of life, flowing with the processes of nature, and never working against either.

Michael Givens – National College of Natural Medicine – 3rd year in Classical Chinese Medicine program



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About Eric Grey

Hi - I'm the founder of Deepest Health. When I'm not writing here, you can find me reaching out to the Chinese Medicine community across the web and in my own backyard. I currently teach Chinese herbs at my alma mater, the National College of Natural Medicine. Additionally, I'm the founder of Watershed Community Wellness, a thriving local clinic in Southeast Portland in Oregon. No matter where I'm working, you'll find my focus on the Classical approach to Chinese medicine laced throughout everything I do.

View all posts by Eric Grey - Website: http://deepesthealth.com

Evan says:
02/03/2008

Scholarship (emphasised by the Chinese) is important. So is contemporary experimentation (emphasised by the West).

We can understand Classical physiology throught the experience of our own bodies (for the more esoteric perhaps supplemented by specific qi gong). Our bodies haven’t changed a whole lot in the last 10,000 years.

We don’t need to understand how to ride a horse before we can drive a car. Scholarship has its place but it need not come first.

Reply
Eric Grey says:
02/03/2008

Interesting take, Evan. As probably expected, I have a different opinion in some respects. I do privilege the introspective abilities of highly cultivated persons over that of those who are less cultivated. While I am certainly capable of having an experience of my body and interpreting that, it doesn’t take me an especially long way towards understanding what’s going on in there. While the human body hasn’t changed much in 10,000 years, our environment certainly has. With those changes have come changes in our ability to introspect in the ways I suspect the ancient Chinese were able. I would point to the insights of David Abrahm in his book Spell of the Sensuous for help in understanding where I’m coming from.

Whether by divine providence or by the peculiarities brought on by a specific people, time and place…. the ancient Chinese developed elaborate theories of human physiology that bear fruit in the here and now. That is, when we actually understand them. Comprehension of these theories takes a tremendous amount of study and, of course, of repeatedly exposing that understanding to the weathering forces of current experience.

That comprehension is revealed in superior diagnostic ability and incredible treatments as evidenced by the most well studied Chinese medicine physicians I know. Those who study less, in my experience, have less to show in terms of results as reported by real human beings. The two greatest CM docs I have known both did extensive study.

I think study must come first. But then, this is a very old dichotomy. Let all of us do our best to be great physicians and let patients be responsible for deciding whose results they prefer. Thank you Evan for your continued thought provoking comments.

Eric

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M. Reynolds says:
02/03/2008

My stance is that its hard to grow good fruit when you don’t have much in the way of roots. Meaning, perhaps talk of innovation and ‘new’ modalities should be tabled until such time the physician has reclaimed the techniques and abilities possessed by the ancients and written down with the expectation that future generations would assimilate them and go to higher planes of achievement. Divergent (and lesser) medical efficacy really isn’t a viable alternative. Call it ‘respecting the text.’ All I know is Ling Shu keeps me up late at night and innovation is most assuredly the furthest thing from my mind at this point.

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Evan says:
02/03/2008

Hi Eric,

Yes I expected some disagreement. If you reflect on your experience I believe you will find the dichotomy doesn’t exist (except in the ways we need to express ourselves).

Our understanding of the theory relies (always) on prior experience. Eg what ‘breathing’ or ‘heat’ means. Theory comes second always – it is just that the theories are in some cases so well learned we forget that we have learned them.

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Eric says:
02/03/2008

The sweet thing about dichotomies, I’ve found, is that they do only exist in the mind of the observer. Of course, that’s the case with absolutely everything in human experience – so in the end the observation doesn’t mean much.

I understand what you mean. It is a necessity that all theories be filtered through a pre-existing system of understanding. However, I don’t think that’s what Michael’s discussing – nor what I was trying to point out. No person who privileges scholarship supposes that the theories they study construct their understanding of the universe.

I think the simplest way to state what I (and I believe Michael) are talking about is this – careful study of the Classics is a foundational practice in Classical Chinese Medicine. Seeking to understand the way that the ancients perceived the body and thought about their medicine is crucial in our ability to use the formulas they constructed with the same confidence and beneficial therapeutic effect they enjoyed.

Eric

Reply
Evan says:
02/03/2008

The question is how understanding of the classics is achieved.

The foundational practice is knowing our own experience. If we can do this we can learn from others if not only become parrots. I think you will find that this is what those who wrote the classics did. Following the masters means, firstly, doing as they did.

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Eric Grey says:
02/03/2008

I think my insistence on study comes from my experience with others. Too often students want to believe that introspection and dwelling in nature, in a contemporary way, is how they are going to become physicians. To provide balance to that overwhelming urge, I emphasize the importance of study.

I feel that while knowing your own experience and doing a lot of pondering and testing things against the world is very important – it is dangerous without study. Study without introspection and the rest will, surely, make you a parrot. Truly – both must be done. I am biased toward the side of study, because the masters I have known were biased in that direction and I respect their work to the utmost. Others may feel differently and proceed differently.

I think this is the entire point of Michael’s article! Haha.

Eric

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Evan says:
02/03/2008

I agree that both are necessary of course.

I invite you to examine the process. Specify what it is you do that you call study. Find out from the masters you respect who are still alive what they did that they labelled study. Find out what is actually meant by understanding. Go beyond these words to the process. I think this is probably the point of Michael’s article and something that we agree on.

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michael says:
02/04/2008

Thank you Evan and Eric for such thoughtful and thought-provoking responses to my article. If anything, it shows that the active dialogue and participation in our medicine will keep it alive; a living medicine is what I am seeking. Thus, everything you’ve commented upon Evan, advocating for self wisdom, is certainly one of the most important things we can do. In fact, I would go so far as to say that to be an effective healer, each one of us must be continuously working and sitting with this inner knowing, inner connection to a deeper wisdom.
That being said, I also agree with Richard Wilhem in his very outdated, yet essential translation of the Yijing, when he comments upon the Tuan (Image) of Hexagram 58, which states that “The Junzi joins with his friends for discussion and practice.” Wilhelm’s comment is, “…there is always something ponderous and one-sided about the learning of the self-taught.”
We live in a time of a great paradox: we are evolved, yet ignorant, experienced and knowlegable, yet unaware and separated from the cycles of nature and the deeper truths within the phenomena that are all around us. The ancient sages may not have had cars, but they could see much more than just the utility of a horse; the horse, in fact, represented for the ancient Chinese, the Heart, and thus the manifestation of the power and grace of Shenming (the brightness of Spirit). While we don’t need to learn (or re-connect with the ancient knowing of )how to ride a horse to drive a car (as you stated in an earlier comment), we also don’t (if you’ll excuse me for blending old metaphors) need to re-invent the wheel; yet, could we? Are we so full of inspiration and wisdom in this day and age to re-invent the wisdom and achievements of the ancients? I do not believe we really are. We just do not have the intimate connection to nature that they (out of necessity) had; thus, it is only arrogance in the progress of others, upon which we stand, that allows us to think we know better.
This, I hope, will not at all detract from your very helpful and insightful comment advising us to look within while we are in the process of study, to see what it is we are really doing, for I do see that you are on to something. I agree with you that in our personal cultivation, meditation and practice we can find deeper truths.
Thanks again for continuing to participate.
Michael

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Evan says:
02/04/2008

Hi Michael,

If we don’t have self-knowledge we can’t learn.

We may not be self-taught but it is always only the self that learns. Of course we learn from others.

Is it arrogance to judge the past on the basis of experience? This is just inescapable – to judge it as better is still a judgement. Unless we are to produce unreasoning parrots (the unconscious ambition of some schools – not yours – in my opinion) there is no alternative but to know our role in judgement. Once this is acknowledged we can move on to refining it and developing our discrimination.

I too want to ensure that our medicine stays living through dialogue such as this.

At its deepest level the discussion is about the nature of the self. This then is about how we learn and hopefully this would affect teaching.

Reply
02/04/2008

Thank you for a very interesting article. I agree that the forefront of western science is converging on Eastern traditions (medical, philosophical and spiritual). And that Chinese medicine practitioners are in a good position to ride that wave, not only benefiting from the convergence (by virtue of the growing acceptance of our way of thinking in Western society), but more importantly by contributing meaningfully to the dialogue about this potentially planet-saving shift in consciousness. I also agree that folks such as yourself who engage deeply in the classical texts as a primary approach to learning are holders of a sacred flame, and as such you have a great deal of important light to shed on the subject of Chinese medicine, for all of us, practitioners and non-practitioners, alike. But, I think it’s also true that there are lots of practitioners of TCM (and other less classical styles, even –dare I say it–medical acupuncture–who in the process of practicing become medical thinkers as aware of and dedicated to functional energetics as others with an education grounded in the classics. Just as acupuncturists can enter into a dialogue with the bodymind at any number of points where Qi converges, this medicine lends itself to multiple approaches. Either Chinese medicine is a holism, in which case most successful practitioners (regardless of training) will have experience working with that dynamic interplay between matter and function– or it’s not. I agree with you that it is. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts! Julie

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M. Reynolds says:
02/04/2008

I think all this talk about alternate approaches and self-knowledge and innovation is great as far as it goes, but this discussion only exists until you come into contact with something so unbelievably powerful that there’s a gulf-sized divide between its effectiveness and the effectiveness of other styles. I’ve recently experienced this via studenthood in an absolutely authentic traditional Chinese martial art , one with no questions whatsoever about where it came from, who taught who, who said what, etc. I’ve trained in an awful lot of styles in my time and sure, I’m quite welcome to do so again at any time. My right as a free thinking human. However, why would I *want* to go back to something lesser having experienced something that is practically perfect? Ditto with my recent forays into Classical Chinese medicine. The discussion about what else you could be doing exists about as long as it takes for you to have sampled ‘the real thing’ and then there’s no question in your mind about any of it. I’ll gladly leave the academic discussion to the true academics. I’m interested in efficacy, not style or identity or self-actualization or self-expression or justifying the culture or times I was born into. All these are nice diversions if that’s of interest to you, but immaterial in the face of the true aim, which is to relieve suffering as effectively as possible, or fix what comes through my door. The ancients have made very clear what level they deem to be an acceptable cure rate, and I am quite certain that I am not at that level. Fortunately, the ancients were kind enough to write it all down. At such time that I have absorbed and master their work and can perform at that level will I think about “where else can I go with this?” and not before. A half-trained acupuncturist/herbalist is bound to do more harm than good.

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Evan says:
02/04/2008

Hi M Reynolds,

Does the Ling Shu keep you up because it illuminates your experience?

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michael says:
02/04/2008

Hi also to M. Reynolds (as well as all others involved in this great discussion),
M. Reynolds, I am very interested in any response you have to Evan’s question, but I wanted to first comment that I strongly am in agreement with you. While I am excited about the possibilities of our medicine in the modern world, personally, I am much more interested in rooting myself in the wisdom of the ancient sages. They have informed us of the highest standard for a doctor, the Shang Gong, or superior physician, who knows exactly what to do simply through his awareness and observation. I believe that Evan is reminding us of this standard. But, we must first aspire to be Xia Gong (whom my teachers do not even claim to be), the lower level physicians who must rely upon mastery of pulse diagnosis and detailed knowledge of theory, and have a cure rate of 5 out of 10; that is quite an accomplishment. Perhaps after we feel we have a mastery of the pulse and the usage of classical formulas as well as simple, direct and highly effective acupuncture treatments, and can cure 5 out of every 10 patients who come through our door for a few handfuls of years, then we can begin to aspire to be Zhong Gong (the middle level physicians) who know exactly what to ask, and cure 7 out of 10.
In the meantime, diligence, study and self-cultivation (which my esteemed mentor and founder of our program, this evening in Qigong, defined as “bringing the Heart to every cell”), these are our means of practice.
I also do agree with Julie Meyer, who brings the excellent point that our medicine lends itself to multiple approaches, because healing occurs on many levels and through many means. Though I am an advocate for dedicated study of classical Chinese medicine, I have seen many healing modalities that work on many subtle, energetic and functional levels. To encourage “the practice of becoming medical thinkers” on the functional level, I believe will help to promote a growth of human conciousness and lead to a deeper form of healing beyond simply what I can do in my own practice.

So, how do we strive to be even Xia Gong, restraining the production of “half trained acupuncturists/ herbalists”, while at the same time participate in the further development of paradigm shift of medical thinking and understanding in general?

Michael Givens

Reply
Evan says:
02/05/2008

To train xia gong.

Expertise is the recognition of patterns. An expert is one with a large repertoir of patterns that they perceive speedily and readily. There is a good book on this from the perspective of western philosophy – What Computers Can’t Do by Dreyfus and Dreyfus. Old now but unparalleled. On teaching well there is When Teaching Becomes Learning (the title repays thinking about).

We can train very competent people very rapidly if we teach them to recognise a few dozen patterns. These being the devils, the channel/organ pathologies, the vital fluids and maybe a few others. This can be done simply and thoroughly – the patterns are not hard to spot and then can be refined. This can be done through qi gong, acupuncture, food, feng shui etc. Chinese Medicine offers many paths that suit different learning styles. The training should be about training perception. Once the pattern is seen the treatment usually follows as a matter of course.

Trust this makes sense, it is of vital importance I think.

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Steven says:
02/05/2008

Hi Michael, I have some questions I want to ask you. Can I email you if you have one? Thanks.

Steven

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max says:
02/11/2008

i come to amateur tcm from a different perspective i studied martial arts as a young child, and had both the bruce lee approach (create your own syle by studying all styles) and the classical approach of doing it only one way the formated stylized way of the specific art,
i was exposed heavily to chinese and asian culture and tradition from older asians during the 1950′s, but, due to extreme racism within my family and uncontrolled personal circumstances
i walked away or was forced away
to enter the western world of science, medicine, military, etc
at the age of 50 i was a victim of a attempted murder resulting in a life after death experience and permnent severe crippling injuries, false imprisonment, etc, etc, the short of it all was i as they say
fallen leaves return to their roots
i survived and survive at the minimal level with my life by eating organic food, studying food and health, surveying medical literature from around the world,
from my perspective the what i might call the bruce lee approach is a chosen path of tcm
study the art of medicine, know its history, know the classical texts, know what the greatest said and why
this creates a mind set of creativity, blending, transposing, to get yourself to where you understand your medicine and you can help others,
rather then being on the outside looking in as in western medicine
you are on the inside in the same room with your patient as in tcm or ccm
the west basically has destroyed its heritage of medicine, with religion and the killing and exterminating of medicines it came in contact with the aztec, the native american, etc, ,
unfortunately the communists in china have done the same thing in tibet
however
the rests a residual of original medical texts from asia medicine in libraries and repositorires in the west and east
to be a DOCTOR
my belief is you need to know whats where
and
use it
for medicine is living and breathing as a science
that one medicine exchanges with other medicines,
, tcm or chinese medicine with the longest history
deserves the greatest study
doctors need to understand the patient, their environment, their culture, etc
because healing is from the inside
and
the greatest single thing tcm can teach is never ever forget
the patient is part of the world
their are no 3 minute quickie mini mental exams in tcm
if their was
then tcm wouldnt exist

Reply
Evan says:
02/11/2008

Hi Max,

Thankyou for your extraordinary post.

Unfortunately at the moment (in Australia where I am anyway) TCM (little CCM here) is being dominated by the small-business mindset and people are very much moving to the six-minute-medicine approach.

There are of course many excellent exceptions.

I want to know so much more of your story, if you’d like to post more.

Heartfelt thanks.
Evan

Reply
max says:
02/11/2008

unfortunately here in the usa traditional medicine has the big mindset “we” will protect “you” by licensing, by restricting access to care, by restricting access to herbs,
the biggest “we” regarding medicine in this mindset is the american medical association a group of homicidal sociopaths backed by the nazis of government, the irrefutable proof is by their own admission the ama doctor’s kill 100,000-200,000 amercians every year thru their mistakes of some kind, and maim and cripple another
200,000-300,000, by the ama own admission,
if the ama`was about medical care the ama would be dilgently working to prevent these deaths and disabilities
however
the ama isnt lobbying to prevent these deaths and disabilities brought on by ama doctors
the ama is lobbying to restrict lawsuits against doctors for financial damages for destroying these people
whats worse is the
naturalpaths, acupuncturists and a few others are lobbying for their right to control and dispense herbs, the end goal is to have a naturalpathic ama
unfortunately ending up with all the ama’s attendant evils
i forsee the day in the us and west in general when
as in tibet when the communists tyrants took over a eventual cleansing of unlicensed practioners, proscribers, herb growers, etc,
unfortunately
TCM in the truest sense was more of a
nobility medicine with very little reaching the average villager 1,000 years ago, villagers were left with shamans etc
reaching further back the gu’s provided medical help to the villagers
while the emperor provided patronage to tcm practioners
tcm altho idolized in the west has a dark side in that most villagers were left on their own for medical help
studying medicine and medical history thruout the world and thru the ages teaches several things
first last and always medicine is about politics
second always remember the first rule
another dark side of CCM because
TCM being a relatively new phenomnena introduced by mao and his barefoot doctors
was doctors were from doctors families and most families closely held their knowledge of healing so as to be the exclusive wise healers who had to be kept in the patronage of the court
a ama of sorts
the world is hurtling at amazing speed
towards a collision with microbes either man made or natural,
when it occurs their will be a large weeding out
at which point those with classical knowledge
by studying all the available texts of all the medical traditions will be the new practioners
i do not hold out hope that these survivor practioners will be any different then the current ama doctors
however the chinese word for crisis also means opportunity
let us hope at least for a few generations after the microbe revolt
that medicine will have a golden age
allowing it to heal the sick
and
truely
let medicine be your food
food be your medicine
and
do not see the forest
but
forget the trees
each patient has entrusted you to their care
use your wisdom wisely
generously

Reply
Evan says:
02/11/2008

Wow Max,

What a comment. I agree with you about alternative practitioners copying the evil practices of doctor’s societies wholeheartedly. This is the case in Australia anyway. When I was studying at a TCM college I tried to raise this as an issue but people didn’t even see what I was talking about: I think it went into the “that’s just Evan being weird” category.

I truly hope that we can wise up to not breeding stronger microbes through antibiotics. I hope too for a change to seeing that our sense of purpose and relationships lie at the core of healing.

I did know that Mao and co threatened death to the traditional doctors and their families if they didn’t give up their secrets. I didn’t know the older history. In the colleges (at least in Australia) TCM is presented as a people’s medicine so it is very good to know more of the history.

Thankyou for the history and your passionate concern.

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max says:
02/11/2008

regarding microbes, a unintended consequence example of modern medicine interacting with traditional medicine is the bird flu, tamiflu is one of the few allopathic md doctors drugs that treat the bird flu, however the raw material to make tamiflu is star anise a traditional herb in china that is used to fight the flu, one year star anise was 40 dollars a kilo the next year it was 800 dollar a kilo because the pharmaceutical companies were buying all available star anise remembering at the same time the pharmaceutical companies were fighting herb quackery, so on one hand the pharmaceutical companies wanted to wipe out herbs (star anise) while the next year removing all of it from the traditional markets to make a allopathic md medicine,
a example of criminal corruption of modern medicine, all of which is related to bio piracy,
its about money
money corrupts
much money corrupts largely
regarding the bird flu tcm has a large component to contribute towards prevention and survival,,,
using antiinflammatories reduces the pulmonary storm of the bird flu, any reduction of the inflammation parameters increases bird flu survival, however many herbs that are suggested to cure the bird flu do so by stimulating the immune system because some immune stimulation works by stimulating inflammatory pathways
a big no no in the bird flu
other herbs prevent viral attachment, block viral replication, etc
unfortunately 3 years work was destroyed by the police in one of their many interactions with me,
im not liked by the us government or police
im told im a potential terrorist
my answer is the same is been since the school yard bully picked on me
you kick a dog its gonna bite you
unfortunately police in the usa and world wide are authoritian semiliterates who cant function without rules they cant and wont think independently it violates the basic tenats of being a policeman you cant think
the police are about rules
they may be crazy and absurd but their the rules
and
theyll be obeyed
but
im getting into history etc
actually good doctors study history
their are pearls of wisdom to be yet discovered in older manuscripts
regarding inflammation
if memory serves me and i might be wrong
TNF alpha is the major inflammatory pathway
secondarily cox and lox
interleukin i cant remeber which one does some damage too
euclyptus has been shown to help in asthma and bronchitis
and is a respiratory sedative
i cant remember everything
type eucyltptus into a pubmed search
unfortunately nothing i found has ever been done even in a petri dish to test eucltypus effectiveness on viruses
some older reaserch in poland indicates the mullein will kill type A influenza
elderberries which are pushed as a solution stimulate the immune system
god im babbling i shut up

Reply
Steven says:
02/11/2008

“to be a DOCTOR
my belief is you need to know whats where
and
use it
for medicine is living and breathing as a science
that one medicine exchanges with other medicines,
, tcm or chinese medicine with the longest history
deserves the greatest study
doctors need to understand the patient, their environment, their culture, etc
because healing is from the inside
and
the greatest single thing tcm can teach is never ever forget
the patient is part of the world”

I read this part and I have to say I agree with you completely. I’m just getting into TCM as an extra hobby and one of my goals is “to know what’s where and use it” My dad is tcm but he wouldn’t teach me anything, so I stole some of his tcm books and started my study. They were all chinese but it’s no problem for me since I grew up in Taiwan. Anyways, I just want to say that there is a lot of stuff in tcm and at this point I’m so motivated I probably will forgo some other pursuits.

Max, please don’t shut up. I really liked some of the stuff you said; it’s like motivation talk to me. :)

-steven

Reply
max says:
02/13/2008

steven
a good doctor doesnt steal his fathers tcm books
i do not want to seem like a nattering nabob of nothingness like a former impeached vice president of the usa
but
their are ways other then ?????? to get tcm books
i know nothing not even your age
maybe i could help you
do you know why your father wont let you read his tcm books
im sure their is a reason
maybe you should find it out
if it comes to the irresistable force meeting the immoveable object
then my humble opinion for whats its worth
if you are absolutely refused permission to even read in your free time tcm books
then you should wait
i waited for a long time in a room that was 5 ft by 9 ft or 1 1/2 meter by 3 meter
i had a concrete bunk, a concrete stool,

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max says:
02/13/2008

sorry my hand slipped
sent the message i wasnt done
a steel toliet a steel basin
i was denied all human contact
i was in liver failure, renal failure, heart failure, brain failure, metabolic acidosis, azotemia, semi comatosed, etc, etc, i was refused medical care and told everybody wanted me dead from the white house cia to my own family, and they were going to let me die oh ye they were starving me too, i was like this for months and months it happened in america
i stood my ground on principle, others signed legal documents in my name which was used against me, when i complained i was threathened with more grievous harm, currently im severely permnently crippled from what they did to me, they did this to me because i wouldnt kill somebody, that somebody was in afghanistan and it was 1999, i am a healer, my profession is to make others healthy, not kill someone because nobody else in the western world can kill him because he is a bad person so they say, everybody comes into this world “taba rosa” with a blank mind, others they interact with create what they become, one mans terrorist is another mans freeedom fighter, a doctor can open a door no soldier can, if the door opens your job is to heal, including healing spirits who make a man harm others, in the history of the world some of the greatest peacemakers were at one time very evil people, the long and short of this if you choose to heal, you can not make judgements, you dont know your patients history, the medicine buddha will tell you that healing involves the emotions more then the body, knowing all this, and it is a SLIPPERY SLOPE from good to bad, maybe stealing your fathers books might be wrong, i wont say it is wrong because i dont have all the facts, something to consider, if you really desire to learn tcm at the right time a knock on a door will occur, all you gotta do is open it, now if your bound and determimned that eventually you will become a healer then im probably breaking the sites protocol so be it but you need help here is my direct email [email protected] mail me we talk, some people think i know a little medicine or so they say, my main medical interest is biological weapons, biological level safety 4 or worse genetic enginereered unknowns , microbes like blackpox, transgenetic microbes, etc, and phytochemicals, before you learn a codon has adenine and thiamine, you need to make sure you will always heal and not destroy with what you know, when your sure and it begins in little ways, then you can learn why mullein is important in the bird flu possibly, its up to you what you choose,,,, madmax the gasman

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